Panel Discussions on the Falun Gong Cult by KPFA Radio in Berkeley, California USA :
　　

       Bonnie：Welcome David Ewing.
David： Thank you for having me back, I am so happy in doing this show, doing interesting topic.
Bonnie：Well, I am so glad David that you suggested it to me, because we've been talking about doing this about a year, I think.
David： Right. It's something, as you know Falungong is out there, people run into it all the time, and so little is known about it.
Bonnie： That is right. We are also joined by Samuel Luo. Samuel Luo's parents are both members of the Falungong. Samuel Luo has read all of the Falungong materials in Chinese. He is well-versed in all of the details of the belief system. Welcome Samuel Luo.
Samuel： Hi, thank you for having me here.
Bonnie：You are very welcome. I've been looking forward to doing the show, you know, because David says so little is known of this organization and in fact it's quite an important organization. It has quite a bit influence internationally, and you have a terrific website there on the Falungong that was quite an education for me, that website is that "Falungonginfo.org" and because so little is known about the Falungong, Samuel, I want to start with you because you have direct experience with the organization. Your parents are prominent members. Could you give us a little background what just, what is the Falungong?
Samuel： Well, we should probably start from the founder and leader of this group, master Lihongzhi, the family name is Li. When Mr. Li was asked by the Time reporter in 1999, the Time reporter asks him this question： "Are you a human being?" Li replied： 「You can think of me as a human being." So not getting a direct answer, the reporter asked the question from a different angle, he asked, 「Are you from earth?」 and Li gave an arrogant and defiant answer 「I don't wish to talk about myself, at a higher level people wouldn't understand it". So who is Li? I mean, they are very secretive about who he is, well, I mean Li is, according to the information published in China, Li was born in July 1952 in a small agricultural city in China's northeastern Jilin province bordering North Korea. His father was an acupuncturist, his mother was a nurse and he has two sisters. He is married. He has a daughter and Mr. Li has a junior high school education. Well, his parents divorced when he was about ten and he joined the Chinese army when he was about 18 and he played trumpet for 8 years. And starting in 1978, he worked as an attendant in a hostel for 4 years. And starting from 1982, he worked as a clerk in a grain and oil company. None of his classmates and teachers remembers him having any interests or training in Qigong or spirituality and his co-workers noticed that starting at 1989, he showed interest in Qigong and Buddhism, then three years later, in May, 1992, he started teaching his Falungong. And when he first started, he introduced himself to the public as the world's greatest Qigong master. He claimed that he has training since the age of 4 by many Buddhist and Taoist masters and at the age of 8, he claimed that he reached enlightenment and he acquired supernatural powers, for example, he could levitate off the ground, and he could become invisible by thinking" nobody can see me" and he could also control people with his thoughts.
Bonnie： Now these are his claims, right? （Yes） now the Falungong in his history is started in 1992, you said. （Yes）, but it has gone through some permutations. It's not today what it was, say, 10-15 years ago, is that right?
Samuel： Yes. It's correct. When he first started, he was a Qingong exercise and it was supported by the Chinese government, but then in 1994, with the publishing of the group's main text <Zhuanfalun>, the Falungong became a religious group, because in that book, he talks about providing salvation to humankind, he talks about the corruption of humankind and basically he said that he can provide salvation to humankind and he also, what you call it, over time outgrew his early statements about himself in 1996. He claimed to be a reincarnated deity. And then in 2002, he told his followers that nobody, I mean no being knows who I am, yeah, without me the cosmos would not exist. But in February 15th, 2003, in the Falungong conference, he gave an even more dramatic account about himself "I came from nothing, formed into something, appeared at the pinnacle of the colossal firmament, and then from there I descended step by step to the most service, the three rounds that means the world that we are living in. The standard of human races' thinking is already at the level lower than hell. It is because of the Fa ratification that atoned for the sins of all sanction beings in the three rounds. As far as our students are concerned, it was as if I scoop to you out of hell back then, I have truly born for you the sins you committed over hundreds and thousands of years and it does not stop. Because of this, I will also save you and turn you into gods. I have spared no effort for you in this process. Never, from the beginning of time, has any god dare to do this.」 His speech was enthusiastically applauded by the 1500 followers that were there. So that is not a Qigong exercise. It's not a traditional Chinese Qigong exercise. It's a religious group.
Bonnie： Now the Fa ratification that you mentioned that is the destruction and recreation of the world by master Li, the founder of Falungong. Now David Ewing, you have a little bit different of take on the beginning of Falungong, you see it in a more business aspect, don't you?
David： You know, yes I do, you know during the late 80s beginning in 1990, we really saw the beginning of multilevel marketing in China, what I mean by that is you think, think Amway. You know the way Amway works is that you know people sell materials to the next layer, the next level of membership. Then they sell, they sell to next though, and then up to chain each person gets a portion whatever sold, but the real money in the system like that isn't the penny that you get, it's when you sell, it's when you recruit someone and get their money and sell them all the materials that then they resell. So there were I think some of this gong systems were really commercially viable because they played on you know traditional Chinese use. I am really interested how foods and many of these things, these companies sold health foods and so forth. But you know Lihongzhi's operation manifests some elements of that, but you know Samuel has tried to explain to me, actually the much of the, all the income in his operation really flowed direct to him, so he intended to use more volunteer people to sell the products and there are many products you can buy from Falungong. And then the money would go directly to him, so he was able to create a volunteer network, and that because I think he is such an outstanding personality, you know he convince people that he has supernatural powers. He used to do public healings you know at the events, and people like faith healing. And so he was able to recruit pretty determined and serious followers, and I think that would make his group more successful than the others and it accounts for some of the success today.
Bonnie：I am speaking with the immigration attorney and China specialist David Ewing and Samuel Luo whose parents actually are quite prominent members of the group Falungong. So Sam, could you explain in some detail what Falungong is, what does it mean? What does it do? What is going on with this group?
Samuel：Well, to answer that question, we have to first look at, get the Falungong's belief system. This group has a unique story about all of us. It is a creation story, according to Li, all of us human beings, when we were first created, we were created in the highest level in the universe. But as we become corrupt or as we lost our innocence, we lowered out level, and more corrupt we are, the lower we go. And earth is the lowest level. So Li claims that by studying his great law which is called "Fa lun da fa" and practising his exercises Falungong, they can cultivate their way back into the highest level of the universe. Now, the danger of not doing that, according to him, is that an event will come to clean up the whole human world, so all corrupt people will be clean out, will be eliminated.
Bonnie：Right, now he looks quite forward to the people who are not members of Falungong being destroyed, isn't that correct?
Samuel： Yes, that is what he says. So once you are in this group, you then want to cultivate yourself, according to Li's teachings , so you can go back up to the highest level. I can talk a little bit about my parent's experience.
Bonnie：Well, I think you should, because your parents are members, and when did your parents join? And what is their experience being in Falungong?
Samuel：They were recruited by a friend of theirs in San Francisco in late 1998. And Falungong was introduced to them as a traditional Qigong exercise. And not too long after they joined, they started to change. They used to enjoy a little alcohol on holidays, they gave that up. My stepfather used to lead a group of elderly people to do exercise in the park. He stopped that and they purchased all of Li's books, 22 in total, and his radio lecture tapes and audio lecture tapes. And they threw away all their old books in the area of spirituality and exercises. And they also replaced the Buddha statue on our mantel, I mean replaced it with the portrait of Li, the world view also changed greatly, they started to see things like the human world is corrupt, Master Li is working hard to save people. I mean to provide salvation to people and they used to dream of buying a house where the family can live together. They gave up their dream and it was replaced with the dream of going to Falungong heaven. All earthly stuff became meaningless to them. I started to question the Falungong teachings. We are getting to argue with my parents. My mother called my objections signs of my close madness, and she said I was interfering with their freedom of belief, once she called me evil for criticizing the Falungong. It sounds like the Falungong became more important to her than her own son. I mean I didn't understand until I read Falungong books, and I was shocked to find out that Falungong actually demands their followers to give up their love for their family. Now in "Zhuan Falun "the main text of the book, Mr. Li writes this" Love between a man and woman, love for parents, feelings, friendship, doing things for friendship and everything else all related to this sentimentality. And if this sentimentality is not relinquished, you will be unable to practise cultivation." So, I think in following or should I've, say, brainwashed by this group, they have become a different person, I have to say. But what really alert me, or what I'm really concerned about was that they abandoned needed medical treatment. They used to use Chinese herbal medicine to treat their colds, and it worked for them. After the Falungong, they stopped using that. And their cold would last for two weeks or even more. And since 2000, my stepfather has had a very painful gout attack. We have medical insurance, but he just refused to seek a medical help for that. I used to get into argument with them because I want them to, I want to push them. I want them to see some medical help, please, you know. But it is usually going into arguments with my parents. And, well, something did happen to my stepfather when my mother, my sister and I were traveling in China at the end of 2001. He was home alone and he had a stroke. He was home alone for five days. But during those five days, people came. And even though the right side of his body was paralyzed, he was able to open the door for them. But he did not ask for help. And on the day my sister returned. In that morning my cousin had stopped by the house and found him very ill, and asked him if he wanted to be taken to the hospital. He just shook his head. I mean, he refused. And when my sister came back, she asked him again, and he refused again. My sister had a cry and begged for him to go to the hospital. When he went, he was in there for a month. And then even with that, he did not change his mind. He did not seek help for his painful gout attack until 2005.
Bonnie：Well, is that belief, is that one of the edicts of the Falungong that you are not supposed to seek the medical help?
Samuel：Yes, this is what Li teaches. Sickness, what do you call it, the cause of sickness is one's wrong doings, one's sin. The wrong, the sin that I mean, you accumulate in this life or in previous life, and therefore the way to treat illness is not to seek medical help but just suffer through it. Because by suffering illness, it helps to pay for sin. So it is said when your sin is all paid for through suffering, then you can go up to the highest level, go back up to the highest level in the universe and live in the heaven again. So it is that teaching that they are believing in. yeah.
Bonnie：And what is the actual Falungong practice? Because I think people have a very unclear view of what members of Falungong do. They have exercises. Don't they have some sort of meditation? But then there is an entire belief system that goes along with that I understand. You've covered a bit of that? I understand the Falun. I guess that means some sort of spinning wheel and I read about the Falungong that the Master Li, the founder and the director of Falungong, that he's, the claim is that he telekinetically inserts a Falun which is a spinning wheel in somebody's abdomen. And the spinning wheel protects them and heals them or something. Was that it?
Samuel：Yes. Well, the Falun is a Buddhist term. And Li has borrowed that from Buddhism. He claims that he implants this Falun in his followers' abdomen. And when they turn clockwise, it releases the bad energy from their bodies, and when they turn the other way, it absorbs energy from the universe. That was what they believed. And he also claims that he sends his spiritual bodies to protect his followers. And he actually told his followers that they will not be harmed because they are, I mean, either from their illness or any accidents, because they are protected by his spiritual body, which he calls 「fa shen」。
Bonnie： I am Bonnie Faulkner. You are listening to Guns and Butter. I am speaking with the co-chair of the U.S China People's Friendship Association David Ewing and Samuel Luo. Samuel Luo's parents are prominent members of Falungong. David Ewing, the Falungong is a huge organization and of course it was banned in China in 1999.And that is a very long story in it itself. But I understand they are very well funded. They are very prominent in the media. Could you talk about their influence, their financing, where they are located? It's an international group, isn't it?
David：It is, it is in the major English speaking country mainly. It is in the United States, I think it was the largest, but it is also in England, Ireland, and in Australia. And although, it is a paradox, I would say it is the biggest organization, because it does seem like a big organization but it seems one without members. It seems have few members, as far as I can tell, so but just to give you some example of the scope of their activities, which have a worldwide reach. They publish a daily newspaper in the United States, five days a week, publish in Chinese. They have been publishing that for 3 or 4 years now. They also publish a newspaper in English. It is called the Epic Times. And it is widely available in San Francisco. Many listeners have seen this paper, in English. It is published about twice a week I think. So you just think the cost of publishing a nationwide daily newspaper, what kind of money does it take, what funding does it takes to an accomplishment like that? you know I don't think ,I can think there is no labor union that I know of is strong enough to have the newspaper, like the green party and none of the , we think it's pretty influential progressive organizations, none of them can publish a daily newspaper. So just somewhere there is a lot of money been made available. But at the same time you know the Falungong, the local Falungong events in San Francisco, which is a center of activities, has pretty, seems to have pretty small numbers of activists involved. Most of them quite elderly. None of them wealthy, so it's a paradox that a group likes could have enormous amounts of money. And there is the newspaper, and they also have a television station in New York City. And they also have a radio station on the peninsula you understand, not far from San Francisco.
Bonnie：Just down the mountain fields.
David：Yeah, that's right. So that's a pretty big media presence for a small group of elderly people, and part of the elder people in Chinatown, isn't it? So in my mind it raised a question where the funding comes from. And Falungong, when you asked me about that, they will tell you that either they carries on through donations made by elderly people or unnamed wealthy individuals, you know on giving large amounts of money to the group but they never identify who the individuals are. They never identify who they are. So it's just really an unusual thing that a group like this, such media clout, we don't know where the money comes from. Is that odd?
Bonnie：That is odd. And then what about the political ramifications of the group? Now I went on some of the websites, the websites for their satellite television station and also their newspaper, the Epic Times, and they have something on, they are called the nine commentaries, the nine commentaries on the communist party. And you can click, they have audio, they have video. You can listen to the nine commentaries. You can read the nine commentaries. And when I looked at some of the commentaries, they would begin with persecution of members of Falungong in China itself. It talks about being tortured and persecuted and banned. And then these nine commentaries are really about the communist party. David Ewing what do you think the nine commentaries?
David：You know I explain what they mean by nine commentaries. You know Chinese people my age that is Chinese people in their 50s remember in 1963, when there was, the Chinese Soviet disputes broke out in that year. The Chinese published nine letters, nine public letters in their address to the Soviet party. So people in China all know, what we say the nine commentaries, this has a very specific meaning for people. So the Falungong use this idea, nine commentaries. But instead of the nine commentaries supporting communism, the Falungong nine commentaries all attack communism. And Falungong seems to be emerging as the largest anti-communism group in the world now. The main thing, the main document they seems to promote in their literature is this nine commentaries document. It's available for free. In most of the box where you can find the Epic Times newspaper. It has a newspaper version of the nine commentaries, about 70 pages or so. And they give away free soft back books, both in English and Chinese. You know this is, I mean I should probably give one or two quotes about it, but it's a theory, a comprehensive attack on the communist party of China. But it also extends the idea that communism is actually an evil kind of a supernatural phenomenon. They really see ideology as supernatural phenomenon. So they think for example, when Max when Karl Max wrote in the opening paragraph of the communist manifesto when he said that specter is haunting Europe, This is understood by the Falungong literally that communism is a specter. It is a being, and so maybe I think I can find a little bit luckier. I think I can find a little quote about this. This is a direct quote from the book. This is the nine commentaries in their soft back book, this is from page 16. In the communist manifesto the first pragmatic document of the communist party, Max claimed that " in 1848 a specter is haunting Europe, the specter of communism". Over a century later, communism is more than a haunting specter; it has possessed a concrete material body. It spread around the world like an epidemic, killed tens of millions and took away property and the free mind and spirit from hundreds and millions. Private property is the basis of all social rights. People who are robbed of private property also lose their free mind and spirit. So this you know in other places they say that communism is actually a spiritual enemy. Something almost an exaggerated version is that, since President Bush has said it's not right, it is wrong about terrorism to embody its specter .That is very remarkable. But the book has its own view of Chinese history, special recent Chinese history. And among other things it gives some of the world view of Falungong, for example, Falungong rehearses the creationist view, you know creationism is fundamentalists ,questions in the US are creationism, they are believing that they don't believe evolution, they oppose scientific theories about evolution so forth. And Falungong has the same viewpoint. And in their books they could stay their creationism. They also oppose homosexuality, and actually the daily reporter that the newspaper support gay rights published an article about them, because they came, the Falungong opposition homosexuality came to light during the debate in Chinatown about whether or not they should be marching in the parade in Chinatown, I think it also opposes to women's rights.
Bonnie：That's right. They also opposed, they have racial views also. That races shouldn't be mixed or something?
David：They don't believe that races should be mixed, they believe for example Christianity and Buddhist is somehow deeply incompatible, so that Buddha people in the east should practise Buddhism, people in the west should practise Christianity. And Samuel knows more about this than me. This is the interesting point. Sam knows about this.
Samuel：Well I can give one of Li's quote about homosexuality. Li's strongest word against gays comes from a lecture in Switzerland. "homosexuality was one of the factors that led to the collapse of Greek civilization", he said, further more 「homosexuals not only violate the standard that God set for the man kind, but also damage human society's moral code. In particular, the impression it gives children would turn future societies into something demonic. And Li describes a special kind of suffering for homosexuals, they will be made to undergo a particularly slow and painful alienation." that person is alienated layer after layer and at a rate that seems pretty rapid to us. But in fact it is extremely slow in that time field, over and over again. One is alienated in an extremely painful way. "That's what he said about gays.
Bonnie：So politically, obviously it's a pretty reactionary politically. It is well funded. It has a lot of media outlets. What about the cult aspects of it? Now, Sam, would you consider this a cult?
Samuel：Well.
Bonnie：I understand that actually people have written about Falungong that it has many of the characteristics of a cult. It has a strong leader, a charismatic leader. It's hard to leave. Is that true?
Samuel：Yes, that is true. I didn't know what happened to my parents until I called Dr. Margaret Singer. She is one of the pioneers in cult studies in this country. And she was doing some research on the Falungong and I was one of some 50 people who called her for help. In her book, Cult in Our Midst, she has this statement about Falungong, 「personally, I have no doubt that Falungong may has many of the characteristics of a true cult, including auto-obedience to a charismatic leader, coercive thought control, financial exploitation of its followers, a doomsday prediction that promises salvation only through total obedience and subservience to the cult leader, zero-tolerance for dissent and a very strict organization from which it is difficult to escape.」 Now, Li is very. He is like a dictator in that group. This is what he said to his followers. He said, 「Remember these words from the master. However I handle something is righteous, and those who doubt this are always wrong. The reason is that is the choice of the cosmos, the choice of the future.」 He said these in February 15, 2003. And he is worshiped by his followers as the God and since 2002, I have been going to cult studies conferences. So I have met many of the country's cult experts. And they told me how to deal with my family situation, and one of the things that helped me a lot was that don't argue with my parents on the Falungong teachings, because that doesn't help. It will only damage our relationship. So since then, I have not been talking about the Falungong. I try not to talk about Falungong at home with my parents. However, I have been talking about Falungong in public. And Falungong try to suppress my free speech. The first time they threatened me with a lawsuit was in March, 2002. The seminar published a letter that I wrote and a local Falungong organizer demanded that I have to call it off, or else with the chance of being sued. That didn't happen. And the real threat came when I organize a program called 「demystifying Li Hongzhi and his Falungong organization for International Cult Studies Association for the conference in Madrid, Spain, in 2005. My fellow panelists were a professor from Harvard Medical School and an ex-counselor. 12 days before the presentation, a Spanish lawyer representing the Falungong Association of Spain, sent a letter to the ICSA and all of us threatening legal action. My copy was handed to me by the same practitioner who threatened me with a lawsuit in 2002. Well, despite the fact that this lawyer had not heard our presentation, he judged them as defamatory in nature. He warned us these, 「any type of negative references to Falungong in a direct or indirect way or any injurious statements which could be considered as defamatory will be taken directly to the Spanish courts.」 Three hours before I left for the airport, I was informed that the program was cancelled. And the director of the ICSA regretted about canceling it, but as he said, the organization did not have the resources to engage in a protracted litigation in a foreign country. People think that Falungong is small, but the Falungong is not small. And it's not. It's powerful, because they have a lot of money, it seems. And they have lawyers that are working for free for them. And they have been using that advantage to suppress their critics' free speech. And that was not the last time I was threatened with a lawsuit. One month after I came back from Spain, I was informed by the host of my website that a Falungong lawyer had written to them, demanding my information. It was clear that once they get that information, they will sue me to shut down my website. So I called the ACLU, and fortunately, they took the case and one letter to this Falungo lawyer took care of it. So I have to thank ACLU for protecting my free speech, thank you.
Bonnie： You are listening to Samuel Law. His parents are prominent members of the group of the Falungong. We are also joined by China commentator David Ewing. I'm Bonnie Faulkner. This is Guns and Butter. We will be taking your phone calls in the last third of the show. I am going to give out the number now, but probably we will not be taking calls for another 5 minutes. But the phone number is 5108484425. You know, Sam, with the talk of the Falungong attacking your free speech rights and dissent, I think before we take calls, we should talk a little bit about why they were banned in China in 1998. What happened in China? They became a very very powerful group, didn't they? David Ewing.
David：It's hard to know. You know, it's hard to know. Their suings were numerous. The thing that I think triggered it off was as they became more important, and I think as the theory developed, they started to get criticism. They started to be criticized in the Press. Falungong is a group that always responded immediately to any criticism.
Bonnie：Yes.
David：So when they started seeing criticism in the Chinese press there would go, they would have a demonstration. And I think, that you know, there was a long period when the authorities in China were themselves promoting this with other Qigongs because in Chinese culture, qigong is the idea that there are channels that energy flows through your body and if you can clear the blocks, you will be healthy. This is why they were widely believed in China. So this was encouraged by the government. But the government was really taken by surprise when suddenly in the very beginning of the criticism, there was a very large demonstration held near the Tiananmen Square around Zhongnanhai, which is the name of the government complex. That seemed it was the thing that triggered the action the government took against them, which I think was very mixed, you know. Yes, the government did outlaw them. I have questioned about whether that was really the best way to handle it. You know, at the one hand, at one time the government has been promoting the mystical beliefs, and then when it was suddenly confronted, the crackdown was harsh against them. So I think there is some legitimate, you know, if I were a member of Falungong and were been treated harsh, I probably get be upset, too. But they quickly went on intensive against the Chinese government. And it's remarkable the amount of resources and international resources they were able to marshal in their defense. You may remember you know that President Bush met with President Hu Jintao of China not too long ago. Remember how the press conference was disrupted by a Falungong person in Washington DC. And this was a person, you know, from one of the Falungong news organizations that had disrupted an earlier conference. The Chinese have believed that Americans knew about this woman, and the Americans made it possible for President Bush, the authority, to allow this to happen to embarrass President Hu Jintao, who also you know. The relation between China and the US is good now, but is never really that good. And when the relation seems to sour, I think there is more official interest on the part of the US government in groups like Falungong that are critical, you heard more about them. And when the relations with China are better, you heard much less about Falungong. So now, I think the relation is pretty good and so Falungong is fading. But once if the relations turned down again like it did in 1990s, we may see a resurgence of US government support and interests for the group.
Bonnie：Samuel Luo, would you like to comment on Falungong in China？ I know they stage mass demonstration, and they were outlawed, but also I read on your website that 「Amnesty International」 actually has supported their free speech rights.
Samuel：Yes, well, from （what do you call it） a victim's perspective, I see this issue differently. I don't condone torture or any human rights violations. However, I believe that the Chinese government has a justifiable reason to ban this group. Before the group was banned, 1400 people died due to not seeking medical help and also this group also caused a threat to public health because there were millions of followers in China. And many of them have abandoned medical treatment. And there's one survey done by Falungong itself on October 18th, 1998 in Beijing. And this survey reveals alarming information. 418 out of 584, that is 71%, polled practitioners have abandoned their medical treatment. And in the largest group, 225 out of 274 practitioners with cardiovascular system illnesses reported totally stopping their medical treatments. And in a smaller group that were suffering from endocrine disorder, I mean disorderly diabetes, 26 out of 33 had totally stopped their medical treatment. So from the Chinese perspective, they think that this group is hurting the health of their citizens, even killing them. And on top of that, they found that Li himself has sought medical help for his own illnesses. From 1982 to 1992 when Li worked for the state-owned Changchun grain and oil-supply company, he had 73 medical expense reimbursements from the government. At that time, the government provided medical insurance for all of its workers. And 48 out of these 73 were treatment he himself received. And on July 8th, 1984, Li had an operation for acute appendicitis in Jilin city people's hospital.
David：Let's take some calls Sam. What do you think?
Samuel：Sure.
Bonnie：Do you like to hear from the listeners? We have Eddie, Berkeley on the line.
Eddie：Hello!
Samuel：Hi!
Eddie：Oh, boy this is great. I tell you, I have never thought I would take the position of the Chinese government over the ACLU. But cults are malicious. It goes right into the sucker bone every minute. Even I （I am a physicist） was caught into a cult for about 6 months and escaped. These guys sound like the monists, because they have that right wing thing and they are supporting America and all that. I don't know how the monists are still doing, but they really play a part in American changes. And there is （what is the name? oh, of course）the scientologist and they have a similar thing that they do. If there's any criticism of them, they sue them right away. And this take it up, you know, they voters' as much resources as they can to sue them. And if you have a book which is against them, they would go to the library and destroy the book, or buy or borrow the books from the bookstore and destroy them. I mean this is, these things are totally outlawed from many countries.
Bonnie：Well, that's right, then. Listen, do you have a question for David Ewing or for Sam Luo?
Eddie：Hello? I am on the phone, just a second, this is an opportune moment. Do I have a question?
Bonnie：That's OK. Thank you for your comment, Adam. We have other people on the line. Thank you, Adam. Victor in San Jose?
Victor：Yes. It's very interesting as I knew very little about the Falungong or heard about it, I didn't. The question is how the evangelicals and the US government play into this. Because it seems that they would be perfect associates to help them, to dismantle or disrupt communist government. And how would the evangelicals and the US government play into this?
David：You know, Falungong remains base in the Chinese language community and I don't know that they have established those links yet. I agree with you that their politics would seem to reflect that, although I think the politics of the Falungong are probably more extreme than most of the, you know, conservative evangelical groups. But, you know, I don't know of those links happening yet. But you know what, it's something took to look for and to be alert to, isn't it.
Bonnie： You are listening to Guns and Butter on Bonnie Faulkner. We are taking listeners' callings at 5108484425. We have Daniel from Oakland on the line. Daniel, go ahead.
Daniel：Yes, good afternoon Bonnie and thank you for taking my call. I have been trying to get in there to meet you on a Wednesday. You may remember I was there at 911 intellectual speak-out .I told you I want to do the voluntary work, but I had been too ill unfortunately. But I hope to get in. Here is my question： You know, this sounds very much to me, like a cult. And it also further sounds to me like it could possibly be an organized mind control experiment and we do know that in the past, and I personally believe that it probably isn't just in the past, the intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency as well as the Russian's and others, have conducted such programs and I wonder what you guests think about the possibility of all these mysterious funding, might just possibly be some, you know, just what their thoughts are, regarding some government intelligence mind control program being covertly funded through whether the United States or some other intelligence agencies, you know, that's just what they thought.
Bonnie： All right. Either of you would like to take that?
Samuel： Well, I can say a little bit about that. My mother is a local leader in the Falungong and twice a month or three times a month we get boxes of materials shipped to her from Taiwan. These materials usually are CDs and pamphlets that they then distribute in the city. And I have asked my parents who is paying for all these? And they always say that some rich practitioner who is making six figures a year and they are paying for it. And I also asked other practitioners and they usually say the same thing. And so, six years now, I mean, boxes of materials have come into my parents' house and I am sure they have also been gone into other practitioners, what to call it, in houses throughout the country. But no one knows who is paying for it. And it's very suspicious. And people in the Chinese community believe that the Falungong might be funded by the Taiwanese government or US, or CIA. I mean we don't know and we don't have to answer for that. But someone is behind this group. That is for sure, because they seem to have so many resources.
David： There are some beginning links with more established right-wing groups, you know. In some of the rallies that I have seen, some of the Falungong rallies in San Francisco. They have brought in anti-communist speakers, especially people who are, you know, like people associated with the organization, with more of the main stream in the anti-communist groups, like the John Berg Society, groups like that, that have a strong anti-communist orientation but are also extremely anti-China. So to bring in, there is a professor from someone I can't remember, a retired professor, I saw him speak. I wish I could think of his name. I had his book which I have read, which is a book that says one of the right-wing themes you see in American politics is that the Chinese shipping companies are buying interests into the ports in the United States and never, that the Chinese were going to buy a lot of the part of the port at the Long Beach. They have been operating the Long Beach. And there have been tremendous opposition. And that was crushed by the Congress. And then there was concern that the Chinese are operating the Panama Canal ports, you know, that's what they think so. Is this kind of concern among political conservatives? And I have seen that mail. I have seen them speak of Falungong organization. So there is some beginning connection.
Bonnie：And also what is interesting to me, generally, is that this is the secret of this organization. I mean we have to sit and speculate is to what it is and who it is and where is the money coming from. I mean this is one of the major points about the Falungong itself, isn't it?
Samuel：Yeah. Seven years after it made international news, we still know so little about this group in the United States. But in China people know what this group is about, because the Chinese government has made disguised information public. So most Chinese people support the ban of Falungong, because they believe this is a cult, a group that is a fraud, you know. And it's hurting people. But in the United States, I hope the public, what to call it, this part of what I am doing is to educate the public, so they can help people like my parents to leave this cult.
David：Yeah, they are very unpopular in Chinatown. Sure you are right, Sam. The Chinatown community doesn't like them. Even there are a number of confrontations with community people with them. Because they are very aggressive, they are trying to take over space in the park, to push people out, you know. Mr. Chen, for example, who stands on the corner often watched and griped. They knocked him down and several times prevent him from holding up signs. He is one of the people who have criticized them. So they are pretty aggressive and I know in Chinatown, San Francisco at least, they are extremely unpopular.
Bonnie：Interesting，because we know so little about them. Let's take a few more calls. We have Alin in Berkeley. Hello, Alin?
Alin：Hi, right, I'm Alin. I was in a cult solar cross, and my take on things that are happening within cult is that there are a lot of UFO or extraterrestrial influence, and then two energetic implants taken in power people to do incredible things. There is a lot of research that have been done so that could explain some of the powers that these persons had.
Bonnie：You know Sam, I was reading. Thank you, Alin. I was reading in some of your writings that are actually the Falungong or Master Li makes the point about aliens, doesn't he? Isn't there a claim there about that?
Samuel：Yeah, he did, he claimed that all these computers and TVs, all that stuff, they were not the products of human beings, and all these scientists were controlled by aliens. And he actually says that the aliens have a plan to take over the human world. I mean he taught a little bit about that I think before 1999. But that's never a main theme in his teachings.
Bonnie：I see. We have another call of Henry in San Francisco.
Henry：Yes, I wonder if you could explain the dynamics exactly in the Chinese community about how people like rose bug （V） and the florence thing （V） and so forth, and appeal about them in the connections with Christ Daily. What do you think, they should be marching in the parade or not?
Samuel：Oh, yeah, that was a big issue, the marching in the New Year's parade. The organization allowed the Falungong to join the parade in 2003, but then they violated the rules, they were passing out pamphlets, I mean anti-China pamphlets, and one of the rules for those parade was they don't want anything political. Because in the Chinese community some people are for the Chinese government, some people are for the Taiwanese government, so there is always a conflict there, so they have to make the rule that no political stuff is allowed in the parade，but then the Falungong violate that rule, and therefore they were, what to call it, exiled from further parades. I remember last year when there was an issue, the organization that was responsible for the parades, what to call it, they were asking for signatures in the Chinese community. In two weekends' time they gathered about 4000 signatures that petition the city government to not allow the Falungong from joining the Chinese parade, so the Falungong does not have much support in the Chinese community even though they are pretty visible.
Bonnie：Samuel in Hayward.
Listener：I have a question to Samuel. Why didn't you mention anything or put a bigger portion of your speech about the Chinese government prosecuting Falungong in China? My understanding is that there is more a thousand Falungong practitioners, I think about three thousand practitioners are being brutally prosecuted to death in China, and thousands are in custody without any legal processes. You are addressing something, try to label it as a cult, would that be a justification for these brutal prosecution
Samuel： no, any prosecution is wrong, they should be stopped, but all these claims what you just said are coming from Falungong, they have never been independently verified by any third party group, since torture is still a problem in China, I would assume that some of them might have been tortured, and that is pretty unfortunate, and I demand the Chinese government stop anything like that. However, to really help the Falungong practitioners, we need to look into this group itself, only then we know this group is not just being a victim of the Chinese government if you believe that, it's also a victim of this guy called Lihongzhi who lives in New York, New Jersey, who has been exploiting his followers and manipulating his followers.
Bonnie：Thank you, Samuel Luo, we are out of time unfortunately, you can visit Samuel Luo's website at www.falungonginfo.org, contacted by email at tafg2002@yahoo.com. Thank you China commentator David Ewing.
David：Thank you for having me again.
Bonnie：Yes, David Ewing can be contacted by email at Ewinglaw@hotmail.c om. I'm Bonnie Faulkner. This has been Guns and Butter. Today's show was of the Falungong. You can send me an email on faulkner@gunsandbutter.net or visit my website at www.gunsandbutter.net. You can get complete information on that at www. Liftingthefog.org. We'll see you next week.

that they will not be harmed because they are, I mean, either from their illness or any accidents, because they are protected by his spiritual body, which he calls 「fa shen」。
Bonnie： I am Bonnie Faulkner. You are listening to Guns and Butter. I am speaking with the co-chair of the U.S China People's Friendship Association David Ewing and Samuel Luo. Samuel Luo's parents are prominent members of Falungong. David Ewing, the Falungong is a huge organization and of course it was banned in China in 1999.And that is a very long story in it itself. But I understand they are very well funded. They are very prominent in the media. Could you talk about their influence, their financing, where they are located? It's an international group, isn't it?
David：It is, it is in the major English speaking country mainly. It is in the United States, I think it was the largest, but it is also in England, Ireland, and in Australia. And although, it is a paradox, I would say it is the biggest organization, because it does seem like a big organization but it seems one without members. It seems have few members, as far as I can tell, so but just to give you some example of the scope of their activities, which have a worldwide reach. They publish a daily newspaper in the United States, five days a week, publish in Chinese. They have been publishing that for 3 or 4 years now. They also publish a newspaper in English. It is called the Epic Times. And it is widely available in San Francisco. Many listeners have seen this paper, in English. It is published about twice a week I think. So you just think the cost of publishing a nationwide daily newspaper, what kind of money does it take, what funding does it takes to an accomplishment like that? you know I don't think ,I can think there is no labor union that I know of is strong enough to have the newspaper, like the green party and none of the , we think it's pretty influential progressive organizations, none of them can publish a daily newspaper. So just somewhere there is a lot of money been made available. But at the same time you know the Falungong, the local Falungong events in San Francisco, which is a center of activities, has pretty, seems to have pretty small numbers of activists involved. Most of them quite elderly. None of them wealthy, so it's a paradox that a group likes could have enormous amounts of money. And there is the newspaper, and they also have a television station in New York City. And they also have a radio station on the peninsula you understand, not far from San Francisco.
Bonnie：Just down the mountain fields.
David：Yeah, that's right. So that's a pretty big media presence for a small group of elderly people, and part of the elder people in Chinatown, isn't it? So in my mind it raised a question where the funding comes from. And Falungong, when you asked me about that, they will tell you that either they carries on through donations made by elderly people or unnamed wealthy individuals, you know on giving large amounts of money to the group but they never identify who the individuals are. They never identify who they are. So it's just really an unusual thing that a group like this, such media clout, we don't know where the money comes from. Is that odd?
Bonnie：That is odd. And then what about the political ramifications of the group? Now I went on some of the websites, the websites for their satellite television station and also their newspaper, the Epic Times, and they have something on, they are called the nine commentaries, the nine commentaries on the communist party. And you can click, they have audio, they have video. You can listen to the nine commentaries. You can read the nine commentaries. And when I looked at some of the commentaries, they would begin with persecution of members of Falungong in China itself. It talks about being tortured and persecuted and banned. And then these nine commentaries are really about the communist party. David Ewing what do you think the nine commentaries?
David：You know I explain what they mean by nine commentaries. You know Chinese people my age that is Chinese people in their 50s remember in 1963, when there was, the Chinese Soviet disputes broke out in that year. The Chinese published nine letters, nine public letters in their address to the Soviet party. So people in China all know, what we say the nine commentaries, this has a very specific meaning for people. So the Falungong use this idea, nine commentaries. But instead of the nine commentaries supporting communism, the Falungong nine commentaries all attack communism. And Falungong seems to be emerging as the largest anti-communism group in the world now. The main thing, the main document they seems to promote in their literature is this nine commentaries document. It's available for free. In most of the box where you can find the Epic Times newspaper. It has a newspaper version of the nine commentaries, about 70 pages or so. And they give away free soft back books, both in English and Chinese. You know this is, I mean I should probably give one or two quotes about it, but it's a theory, a comprehensive attack on the communist party of China. But it also extends the idea that communism is actually an evil kind of a supernatural phenomenon. They really see ideology as supernatural phenomenon. So they think for example, when Max when Karl Max wrote in the opening paragraph of the communist manifesto when he said that specter is haunting Europe, This is understood by the Falungong literally that communism is a specter. It is a being, and so maybe I think I can find a little bit luckier. I think I can find a little quote about this. This is a direct quote from the book. This is the nine commentaries in their soft back book, this is from page 16. In the communist manifesto the first pragmatic document of the communist party, Max claimed that " in 1848 a specter is haunting Europe, the specter of communism". Over a century later, communism is more than a haunting specter; it has possessed a concrete material body. It spread around the world like an epidemic, killed tens of millions and took away property and the free mind and spirit from hundreds and millions. Private property is the basis of all social rights. People who are robbed of private property also lose their free mind and spirit. So this you know in other places they say that communism is actually a spiritual enemy. Something almost an exaggerated version is that, since President Bush has said it's not right, it is wrong about terrorism to embody its specter .That is very remarkable. But the book has its own view of Chinese history, special recent Chinese history. And among other things it gives some of the world view of Falungong, for example, Falungong rehearses the creationist view, you know creationism is fundamentalists ,questions in the US are creationism, they are believing that they don't believe evolution, they oppose scientific theories about evolution so forth. And Falungong has the same viewpoint. And in their books they could stay their creationism. They also oppose homosexuality, and actually the daily reporter that the newspaper support gay rights published an article about them, because they came, the Falungong opposition homosexuality came to light during the debate in Chinatown about whether or not they should be marching in the parade in Chinatown, I think it also opposes to women's rights.
Bonnie：That's right. They also opposed, they have racial views also. That races shouldn't be mixed or something?
David：They don't believe that races should be mixed, they believe for example Christianity and Buddhist is somehow deeply incompatible, so that Buddha people in the east should practise Buddhism, people in the west should practise Christianity. And Samuel knows more about this than me. This is the interesting point. Sam knows about this.
Samuel：Well I can give one of Li's quote about homosexuality. Li's strongest word against gays comes from a lecture in Switzerland. "homosexuality was one of the factors that led to the collapse of Greek civilization", he said, further more 「homosexuals not only violate the standard that God set for the man kind, but also damage human society's moral code. In particular, the impression it gives children would turn future societies into something demonic. And Li describes a special kind of suffering for homosexuals, they will be made to undergo a particularly slow and painful alienation." that person is alienated layer after layer and at a rate that seems pretty rapid to us. But in fact it is extremely slow in that time field, over and over again. One is alienated in an extremely painful way. "That's what he said about gays.
Bonnie：So politically, obviously it's a pretty reactionary politically. It is well funded. It has a lot of media outlets. What about the cult aspects of it? Now, Sam, would you consider this a cult?
Samuel：Well.
Bonnie：I understand that actually people have written about Falungong that it has many of the characteristics of a cult. It has a strong leader, a charismatic leader. It's hard to leave. Is that true?
Samuel：Yes, that is true. I didn't know what happened to my parents until I called Dr. Margaret Singer. She is one of the pioneers in cult studies in this country. And she was doing some research on the Falungong and I was one of some 50 people who called her for help. In her book, Cult in Our Midst, she has this statement about Falungong, 「personally, I have no doubt that Falungong may has many of the characteristics of a true cult, including auto-obedience to a charismatic leader, coercive thought control, financial exploitation of its followers, a doomsday prediction that promises salvation only through total obedience and subservience to the cult leader, zero-tolerance for dissent and a very strict organization from which it is difficult to escape.」 Now, Li is very. He is like a dictator in that group. This is what he said to his followers. He said, 「Remember these words from the master. However I handle something is righteous, and those who doubt this are always wrong. The reason is that is the choice of the cosmos, the choice of the future.」 He said these in February 15, 2003. And he is worshiped by his followers as the God and since 2002, I have been going to cult studies conferences. So I have met many of the country's cult experts. And they told me how to deal with my family situation, and one of the things that helped me a lot was that don't argue with my parents on the Falungong teachings, because that doesn't help. It will only damage our relationship. So since then, I have not been talking about the Falungong. I try not to talk about Falungong at home with my parents. However, I have been talking about Falungong in public. And Falungong try to suppress my free speech. The first time they threatened me with a lawsuit was in March, 2002. The seminar published a letter that I wrote and a local Falungong organizer demanded that I have to call it off, or else with the chance of being sued. That didn't happen. And the real threat came when I organize a program called 「demystifying Li Hongzhi and his Falungong organization for International Cult Studies Association for the conference in Madrid, Spain, in 2005. My fellow panelists were a professor from Harvard Medical School and an ex-counselor. 12 days before the presentation, a Spanish lawyer representing the Falungong Association of Spain, sent a letter to the ICSA and all of us threatening legal action. My copy was handed to me by the same practitioner who threatened me with a lawsuit in 2002. Well, despite the fact that this lawyer had not heard our presentation, he judged them as defamatory in nature. He warned us these, 「any type of negative references to Falungong in a direct or indirect way or any injurious statements which could be considered as defamatory will be taken directly to the Spanish courts.」 Three hours before I left for the airport, I was informed that the program was cancelled. And the director of the ICSA regretted about canceling it, but as he said, the organization did not have the resources to engage in a protracted litigation in a foreign country. People think that Falungong is small, but the Falungong is not small. And it's not. It's powerful, because they have a lot of money, it seems. And they have lawyers that are working for free for them. And they have been using that advantage to suppress their critics' free speech. And that was not the last time I was threatened with a lawsuit. One month after I came back from Spain, I was informed by the host of my website that a Falungong lawyer had written to them, demanding my information. It was clear that once they get that information, they will sue me to shut down my website. So I called the ACLU, and fortunately, they took the case and one letter to this Falungo lawyer took care of it. So I have to thank ACLU for protecting my free speech, thank you.
Bonnie： You are listening to Samuel Law. His parents are prominent members of the group of the Falungong. We are also joined by China commentator David Ewing. I'm Bonnie Faulkner. This is Guns and Butter. We will be taking your phone calls in the last third of the show. I am going to give out the number now, but probably we will not be taking calls for another 5 minutes. But the phone number is 5108484425. You know, Sam, with the talk of the Falungong attacking your free speech rights and dissent, I think before we take calls, we should talk a little bit about why they were banned in China in 1998. What happened in China? They became a very very powerful group, didn't they? David Ewing.
David：It's hard to know. You know, it's hard to know. Their suings were numerous. The thing that I think triggered it off was as they became more important, and I think as the theory developed, they started to get criticism. They started to be criticized in the Press. Falungong is a group that always responded immediately to any criticism.
Bonnie：Yes.
David：So when they started seeing criticism in the Chinese press there would go, they would have a demonstration. And I think, that you know, there was a long period when the authorities in China were themselves promoting this with other Qigongs because in Chinese culture, qigong is the idea that there are channels that energy flows through your body and if you can clear the blocks, you will be healthy. This is why they were widely believed in China. So this was encouraged by the government. But the government was really taken by surprise when suddenly in the very beginning of the criticism, there was a very large demonstration held near the Tiananmen Square around Zhongnanhai, which is the name of the government complex. That seemed it was the thing that triggered the action the government took against them, which I think was very mixed, you know. Yes, the government did outlaw them. I have questioned about whether that was really the best way to handle it. You know, at the one hand, at one time the government has been promoting the mystical beliefs, and then when it was suddenly confronted, the crackdown was harsh against them. So I think there is some legitimate, you know, if I were a member of Falungong and were been treated harsh, I probably get be upset, too. But they quickly went on intensive against the Chinese government. And it's remarkable the amount of resources and international resources they were able to marshal in their defense. You may remember you know that President Bush met with President Hu Jintao of China not too long ago. Remember how the press conference was disrupted by a Falungong person in Washington DC. And this was a person, you know, from one of the Falungong news organizations that had disrupted an earlier conference. The Chinese have believed that Americans knew about this woman, and the Americans made it possible for President Bush, the authority, to allow this to happen to embarrass President Hu Jintao, who also you know. The relation between China and the US is good now, but is never really that good. And when the relation seems to sour, I think there is more official interest on the part of the US government in groups like Falungong that are critical, you heard more about them. And when the relations with China are better, you heard much less about Falungong. So now, I think the relation is pretty good and so Falungong is fading. But once if the relations turned down again like it did in 1990s, we may see a resurgence of US government support and interests for the group.
Bonnie：Samuel Luo, would you like to comment on Falungong in China？ I know they stage mass demonstration, and they were outlawed, but also I read on your website that 「Amnesty International」 actually has supported their free speech rights.
Samuel：Yes, well, from （what do you call it） a victim's perspective, I see this issue differently. I don't condone torture or any human rights violations. However, I believe that the Chinese government has a justifiable reason to ban this group. Before the group was banned, 1400 people died due to not seeking medical help and also this group also caused a threat to public health because there were millions of followers in China. And many of them have abandoned medical treatment. And there's one survey done by Falungong itself on October 18th, 1998 in Beijing. And this survey reveals alarming information. 418 out of 584, that is 71%, polled practitioners have abandoned their medical treatment. And in the largest group, 225 out of 274 practitioners with cardiovascular system illnesses reported totally stopping their medical treatments. And in a smaller group that were suffering from endocrine disorder, I mean disorderly diabetes, 26 out of 33 had totally stopped their medical treatment. So from the Chinese perspective, they think that this group is hurting the health of their citizens, even killing them. And on top of that, they found that Li himself has sought medical help for his own illnesses. From 1982 to 1992 when Li worked for the state-owned Changchun grain and oil-supply company, he had 73 medical expense reimbursements from the government. At that time, the government provided medical insurance for all of its workers. And 48 out of these 73 were treatment he himself received. And on July 8th, 1984, Li had an operation for acute appendicitis in Jilin city people's hospital.
David：Let's take some calls Sam. What do you think?
Samuel：Sure.
Bonnie：Do you like to hear from the listeners? We have Eddie, Berkeley on the line.
Eddie：Hello!
Samuel：Hi!
Eddie：Oh, boy this is great. I tell you, I have never thought I would take the position of the Chinese government over the ACLU. But cults are malicious. It goes right into the sucker bone every minute. Even I （I am a physicist） was caught into a cult for about 6 months and escaped. These guys sound like the monists, because they have that right wing thing and they are supporting America and all that. I don't know how the monists are still doing, but they really play a part in American changes. And there is （what is the name? oh, of course）the scientologist and they have a similar thing that they do. If there's any criticism of them, they sue them right away. And this take it up, you know, they voters' as much resources as they can to sue them. And if you have a book which is against them, they would go to the library and destroy the book, or buy or borrow the books from the bookstore and destroy them. I mean this is, these things are totally outlawed from many countries.
Bonnie：Well, that's right, then. Listen, do you have a question for David Ewing or for Sam Luo?
Eddie：Hello? I am on the phone, just a second, this is an opportune moment. Do I have a question?
Bonnie：That's OK. Thank you for your comment, Adam. We have other people on the line. Thank you, Adam. Victor in San Jose?
Victor：Yes. It's very interesting as I knew very little about the Falungong or heard about it, I didn't. The question is how the evangelicals and the US government play into this. Because it seems that they would be perfect associates to help them, to dismantle or disrupt communist government. And how would the evangelicals and the US government play into this?
David：You know, Falungong remains base in the Chinese language community and I don't know that they have established those links yet. I agree with you that their politics would seem to reflect that, although I think the politics of the Falungong are probably more extreme than most of the, you know, conservative evangelical groups. But, you know, I don't know of those links happening yet. But you know what, it's something took to look for and to be alert to, isn't it.
Bonnie： You are listening to Guns and Butter on Bonnie Faulkner. We are taking listeners' callings at 5108484425. We have Daniel from Oakland on the line. Daniel, go ahead.
Daniel：Yes, good afternoon Bonnie and thank you for taking my call. I have been trying to get in there to meet you on a Wednesday. You may remember I was there at 911 intellectual speak-out .I told you I want to do the voluntary work, but I had been too ill unfortunately. But I hope to get in. Here is my question： You know, this sounds very much to me, like a cult. And it also further sounds to me like it could possibly be an organized mind control experiment and we do know that in the past, and I personally believe that it probably isn't just in the past, the intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency as well as the Russian's and others, have conducted such programs and I wonder what you guests think about the possibility of all these mysterious funding, might just possibly be some, you know, just what their thoughts are, regarding some government intelligence mind control program being covertly funded through whether the United States or some other intelligence agencies, you know, that's just what they thought.
Bonnie： All right. Either of you would like to take that?
Samuel： Well, I can say a little bit about that. My mother is a local leader in the Falungong and twice a month or three times a month we get boxes of materials shipped to her from Taiwan. These materials usually are CDs and pamphlets that they then distribute in the city. And I have asked my parents who is paying for all these? And they always say that some rich practitioner who is making six figures a year and they are paying for it. And I also asked other practitioners and they usually say the same thing. And so, six years now, I mean, boxes of materials have come into my parents' house and I am sure they have also been gone into other practitioners, what to call it, in houses throughout the country. But no one knows who is paying for it. And it's very suspicious. And people in the Chinese community believe that the Falungong might be funded by the Taiwanese government or US, or CIA. I mean we don't know and we don't have to answer for that. But someone is behind this group. That is for sure, because they seem to have so many resources.
David： There are some beginning links with more established right-wing groups, you know. In some of the rallies that I have seen, some of the Falungong rallies in San Francisco. They have brought in anti-communist speakers, especially people who are, you know, like people associated with the organization, with more of the main stream in the anti-communist groups, like the John Berg Society, groups like that, that have a strong anti-communist orientation but are also extremely anti-China. So to bring in, there is a professor from someone I can't remember, a retired professor, I saw him speak. I wish I could think of his name. I had his book which I have read, which is a book that says one of the right-wing themes you see in American politics is that the Chinese shipping companies are buying interests into the ports in the United States and never, that the Chinese were going to buy a lot of the part of the port at the Long Beach. They have been operating the Long Beach. And there have been tremendous opposition. And that was crushed by the Congress. And then there was concern that the Chinese are operating the Panama Canal ports, you know, that's what they think so. Is this kind of concern among political conservatives? And I have seen that mail. I have seen them speak of Falungong organization. So there is some beginning connection.
Bonnie：And also what is interesting to me, generally, is that this is the secret of this organization. I mean we have to sit and speculate is to what it is and who it is and where is the money coming from. I mean this is one of the major points about the Falungong itself, isn't it?
Samuel：Yeah. Seven years after it made international news, we still know so little about this group in the United States. But in China people know what this group is about, because the Chinese government has made disguised information public. So most Chinese people support the ban of Falungong, because they believe this is a cult, a group that is a fraud, you know. And it's hurting people. But in the United States, I hope the public, what to call it, this part of what I am doing is to educate the public, so they can help people like my parents to leave this cult.
David：Yeah, they are very unpopular in Chinatown. Sure you are right, Sam. The Chinatown community doesn't like them. Even there are a number of confrontations with community people with them. Because they are very aggressive, they are trying to take over space in the park, to push people out, you know. Mr. Chen, for example, who stands on the corner often watched and griped. They knocked him down and several times prevent him from holding up signs. He is one of the people who have criticized them. So they are pretty aggressive and I know in Chinatown, San Francisco at least, they are extremely unpopular.
Bonnie：Interesting，because we know so little about them. Let's take a few more calls. We have Alin in Berkeley. Hello, Alin?
Alin：Hi, right, I'm Alin. I was in a cult solar cross, and my take on things that are happening within cult is that there are a lot of UFO or extraterrestrial influence, and then two energetic implants taken in power people to do incredible things. There is a lot of research that have been done so that could explain some of the powers that these persons had.
Bonnie：You know Sam, I was reading. Thank you, Alin. I was reading in some of your writings that are actually the Falungong or Master Li makes the point about aliens, doesn't he? Isn't there a claim there about that?
Samuel：Yeah, he did, he claimed that all these computers and TVs, all that stuff, they were not the products of human beings, and all these scientists were controlled by aliens. And he actually says that the aliens have a plan to take over the human world. I mean he taught a little bit about that I think before 1999. But that's never a main theme in his teachings.
Bonnie：I see. We have another call of Henry in San Francisco.
Henry：Yes, I wonder if you could explain the dynamics exactly in the Chinese community about how people like rose bug （V） and the florence thing （V） and so forth, and appeal about them in the connections with Christ Daily. What do you think, they should be marching in the parade or not?
Samuel：Oh, yeah, that was a big issue, the marching in the New Year's parade. The organization allowed the Falungong to join the parade in 2003, but then they violated the rules, they were passing out pamphlets, I mean anti-China pamphlets, and one of the rules for those parade was they don't want anything political. Because in the Chinese community some people are for the Chinese government, some people are for the Taiwanese government, so there is always a conflict there, so they have to make the rule that no political stuff is allowed in the parade，but then the Falungong violate that rule, and therefore they were, what to call it, exiled from further parades. I remember last year when there was an issue, the organization that was responsible for the parades, what to call it, they were asking for signatures in the Chinese community. In two weekends' time they gathered about 4000 signatures that petition the city government to not allow the Falungong from joining the Chinese parade, so the Falungong does not have much support in the Chinese community even though they are pretty visible.
Bonnie：Samuel in Hayward.
Listener：I have a question to Samuel. Why didn't you mention anything or put a bigger portion of your speech about the Chinese government prosecuting Falungong in China? My understanding is that there is more a thousand Falungong practitioners, I think about three thousand practitioners are being brutally prosecuted to death in China, and thousands are in custody without any legal processes. You are addressing something, try to label it as a cult, would that be a justification for these brutal prosecution
Samuel： no, any prosecution is wrong, they should be stopped, but all these claims what you just said are coming from Falungong, they have never been independently verified by any third party group, since torture is still a problem in China, I would assume that some of them might have been tortured, and that is pretty unfortunate, and I demand the Chinese government stop anything like that. However, to really help the Falungong practitioners, we need to look into this group itself, only then we know this group is not just being a victim of the Chinese government if you believe that, it's also a victim of this guy called Lihongzhi who lives in New York, New Jersey, who has been exploiting his followers and manipulating his followers.
Bonnie：Thank you, Samuel Luo, we are out of time unfortunately, you can visit Samuel Luo's website at www.falungonginfo.org, contacted by email at tafg2002@yahoo.com. Thank you China commentator David Ewing.
David：Thank you for having me again.
Bonnie：Yes, David Ewing can be contacted by email at Ewinglaw@hotmail.c om. I'm Bonnie Faulkner. This has been Guns and Butter. Today's show was of the Falungong. You can send me an email on faulkner@gunsandbutter.net or visit my website at www.gunsandbutter.net. You can get complete information on that at www. Liftingthefog.org. We'll see you next week.

President Bush met with President Hu Jintao of China not too long ago. Remember how the press conference was disrupted by a Falungong person in Washington DC. And this was a person, you know, from one of the Falungong news organizations that had disrupted an earlier conference. The Chinese have believed that Americans knew about this woman, and the Americans made it possible for President Bush, the authority, to allow this to happen to embarrass President Hu Jintao, who also you know. The relation between China and the US is good now, but is never really that good. And when the relation seems to sour, I think there is more official interest on the part of the US government in groups like Falungong that are critical, you heard more about them. And when the relations with China are better, you heard much less about Falungong. So now, I think the relation is pretty good and so Falungong is fading. But once if the relations turned down again like it did in 1990s, we may see a resurgence of US government support and interests for the group.
Bonnie：Samuel Luo, would you like to comment on Falungong in China？ I know they stage mass demonstration, and they were outlawed, but also I read on your website that 「Amnesty International」 actually has supported their free speech rights.
Samuel：Yes, well, from （what do you call it） a victim's perspective, I see this issue differently. I don't condone torture or any human rights violations. However, I believe that the Chinese government has a justifiable reason to ban this group. Before the group was banned, 1400 people died due to not seeking medical help and also this group also caused a threat to public health because there were millions of followers in China. And many of them have abandoned medical treatment. And there's one survey done by Falungong itself on October 18th, 1998 in Beijing. And this survey reveals alarming information. 418 out of 584, that is 71%, polled practitioners have abandoned their medical treatment. And in the largest group, 225 out of 274 practitioners with cardiovascular system illnesses reported totally stopping their medical treatments. And in a smaller group that were suffering from endocrine disorder, I mean disorderly diabetes, 26 out of 33 had totally stopped their medical treatment. So from the Chinese perspective, they think that this group is hurting the health of their citizens, even killing them. And on top of that, they found that Li himself has sought medical help for his own illnesses. From 1982 to 1992 when Li worked for the state-owned Changchun grain and oil-supply company, he had 73 medical expense reimbursements from the government. At that time, the government provided medical insurance for all of its workers. And 48 out of these 73 were treatment he himself received. And on July 8th, 1984, Li had an operation for acute appendicitis in Jilin city people's hospital.
David：Let's take some calls Sam. What do you think?
Samuel：Sure.
Bonnie：Do you like to hear from the listeners? We have Eddie, Berkeley on the line.
Eddie：Hello!
Samuel：Hi!
Eddie：Oh, boy this is great. I tell you, I have never thought I would take the position of the Chinese government over the ACLU. But cults are malicious. It goes right into the sucker bone every minute. Even I （I am a physicist） was caught into a cult for about 6 months and escaped. These guys sound like the monists, because they have that right wing thing and they are supporting America and all that. I don't know how the monists are still doing, but they really play a part in American changes. And there is （what is the name? oh, of course）the scientologist and they have a similar thing that they do. If there's any criticism of them, they sue them right away. And this take it up, you know, they voters' as much resources as they can to sue them. And if you have a book which is against them, they would go to the library and destroy the book, or buy or borrow the books from the bookstore and destroy them. I mean this is, these things are totally outlawed from many countries.
Bonnie：Well, that's right, then. Listen, do you have a question for David Ewing or for Sam Luo?
Eddie：Hello? I am on the phone, just a second, this is an opportune moment. Do I have a question?
Bonnie：That's OK. Thank you for your comment, Adam. We have other people on the line. Thank you, Adam. Victor in San Jose?
Victor：Yes. It's very interesting as I knew very little about the Falungong or heard about it, I didn't. The question is how the evangelicals and the US government play into this. Because it seems that they would be perfect associates to help them, to dismantle or disrupt communist government. And how would the evangelicals and the US government play into this?
David：You know, Falungong remains base in the Chinese language community and I don't know that they have established those links yet. I agree with you that their politics would seem to reflect that, although I think the politics of the Falungong are probably more extreme than most of the, you know, conservative evangelical groups. But, you know, I don't know of those links happening yet. But you know what, it's something took to look for and to be alert to, isn't it.
Bonnie： You are listening to Guns and Butter on Bonnie Faulkner. We are taking listeners' callings at 5108484425. We have Daniel from Oakland on the line. Daniel, go ahead.
Daniel：Yes, good afternoon Bonnie and thank you for taking my call. I have been trying to get in there to meet you on a Wednesday. You may remember I was there at 911 intellectual speak-out .I told you I want to do the voluntary work, but I had been too ill unfortunately. But I hope to get in. Here is my question： You know, this sounds very much to me, like a cult. And it also further sounds to me like it could possibly be an organized mind control experiment and we do know that in the past, and I personally believe that it probably isn't just in the past, the intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency as well as the Russian's and others, have conducted such programs and I wonder what you guests think about the possibility of all these mysterious funding, might just possibly be some, you know, just what their thoughts are, regarding some government intelligence mind control program being covertly funded through whether the United States or some other intelligence agencies, you know, that's just what they thought.
Bonnie： All right. Either of you would like to take that?
Samuel： Well, I can say a little bit about that. My mother is a local leader in the Falungong and twice a month or three times a month we get boxes of materials shipped to her from Taiwan. These materials usually are CDs and pamphlets that they then distribute in the city. And I have asked my parents who is paying for all these? And they always say that some rich practitioner who is making six figures a year and they are paying for it. And I also asked other practitioners and they usually say the same thing. And so, six years now, I mean, boxes of materials have come into my parents' house and I am sure they have also been gone into other practitioners, what to call it, in houses throughout the country. But no one knows who is paying for it. And it's very suspicious. And people in the Chinese community believe that the Falungong might be funded by the Taiwanese government or US, or CIA. I mean we don't know and we don't have to answer for that. But someone is behind this group. That is for sure, because they seem to have so many resources.
David： There are some beginning links with more established right-wing groups, you know. In some of the rallies that I have seen, some of the Falungong rallies in San Francisco. They have brought in anti-communist speakers, especially people who are, you know, like people associated with the organization, with more of the main stream in the anti-communist groups, like the John Berg Society, groups like that, that have a strong anti-communist orientation but are also extremely anti-China. So to bring in, there is a professor from someone I can't remember, a retired professor, I saw him speak. I wish I could think of his name. I had his book which I have read, which is a book that says one of the right-wing themes you see in American politics is that the Chinese shipping companies are buying interests into the ports in the United States and never, that the Chinese were going to buy a lot of the part of the port at the Long Beach. They have been operating the Long Beach. And there have been tremendous opposition. And that was crushed by the Congress. And then there was concern that the Chinese are operating the Panama Canal ports, you know, that's what they think so. Is this kind of concern among political conservatives? And I have seen that mail. I have seen them speak of Falungong organization. So there is some beginning connection.
Bonnie：And also what is interesting to me, generally, is that this is the secret of this organization. I mean we have to sit and speculate is to what it is and who it is and where is the money coming from. I mean this is one of the major points about the Falungong itself, isn't it?
Samuel：Yeah. Seven years after it made international news, we still know so little about this group in the United States. But in China people know what this group is about, because the Chinese government has made disguised information public. So most Chinese people support the ban of Falungong, because they believe this is a cult, a group that is a fraud, you know. And it's hurting people. But in the United States, I hope the public, what to call it, this part of what I am doing is to educate the public, so they can help people like my parents to leave this cult.
David：Yeah, they are very unpopular in Chinatown. Sure you are right, Sam. The Chinatown community doesn't like them. Even there are a number of confrontations with community people with them. Because they are very aggressive, they are trying to take over space in the park, to push people out, you know. Mr. Chen, for example, who stands on the corner often watched and griped. They knocked him down and several times prevent him from holding up signs. He is one of the people who have criticized them. So they are pretty aggressive and I know in Chinatown, San Francisco at least, they are extremely unpopular.
Bonnie：Interesting，because we know so little about them. Let's take a few more calls. We have Alin in Berkeley. Hello, Alin?
Alin：Hi, right, I'm Alin. I was in a cult solar cross, and my take on things that are happening within cult is that there are a lot of UFO or extraterrestrial influence, and then two energetic implants taken in power people to do incredible things. There is a lot of research that have been done so that could explain some of the powers that these persons had.
Bonnie：You know Sam, I was reading. Thank you, Alin. I was reading in some of your writings that are actually the Falungong or Master Li makes the point about aliens, doesn't he? Isn't there a claim there about that?
Samuel：Yeah, he did, he claimed that all these computers and TVs, all that stuff, they were not the products of human beings, and all these scientists were controlled by aliens. And he actually says that the aliens have a plan to take over the human world. I mean he taught a little bit about that I think before 1999. But that's never a main theme in his teachings.
Bonnie：I see. We have another call of Henry in San Francisco.
Henry：Yes, I wonder if you could explain the dynamics exactly in the Chinese community about how people like rose bug （V） and the florence thing （V） and so forth, and appeal about them in the connections with Christ Daily. What do you think, they should be marching in the parade or not?
Samuel：Oh, yeah, that was a big issue, the marching in the New Year's parade. The organization allowed the Falungong to join the parade in 2003, but then they violated the rules, they were passing out pamphlets, I mean anti-China pamphlets, and one of the rules for those parade was they don't want anything political. Because in the Chinese community some people are for the Chinese government, some people are for the Taiwanese government, so there is always a conflict there, so they have to make the rule that no political stuff is allowed in the parade，but then the Falungong violate that rule, and therefore they were, what to call it, exiled from further parades. I remember last year when there was an issue, the organization that was responsible for the parades, what to call it, they were asking for signatures in the Chinese community. In two weekends' time they gathered about 4000 signatures that petition the city government to not allow the Falungong from joining the Chinese parade, so the Falungong does not have much support in the Chinese community even though they are pretty visible.
Bonnie：Samuel in Hayward.
Listener：I have a question to Samuel. Why didn't you mention anything or put a bigger portion of your speech about the Chinese government prosecuting Falungong in China? My understanding is that there is more a thousand Falungong practitioners, I think about three thousand practitioners are being brutally prosecuted to death in China, and thousands are in custody without any legal processes. You are addressing something, try to label it as a cult, would that be a justification for these brutal prosecution
Samuel： no, any prosecution is wrong, they should be stopped, but all these claims what you just said are coming from Falungong, they have never been independently verified by any third party group, since torture is still a problem in China, I would assume that some of them might have been tortured, and that is pretty unfortunate, and I demand the Chinese government stop anything like that. However, to really help the Falungong practitioners, we need to look into this group itself, only then we know this group is not just being a victim of the Chinese government if you believe that, it's also a victim of this guy called Lihongzhi who lives in New York, New Jersey, who has been exploiting his followers and manipulating his followers.
Bonnie：Thank you, Samuel Luo, we are out of time unfortunately, you can visit Samuel Luo's website at www.falungonginfo.org, contacted by email at tafg2002@yahoo.com. Thank you China commentator David Ewing.
David：Thank you for having me again.
Bonnie：Yes, David Ewing can be contacted by email at Ewinglaw@hotmail.c om. I'm Bonnie Faulkner. This has been Guns and Butter. Today's show was of the Falungong. You can send me an email on faulkner@gunsandbutter.net or visit my website at www.gunsandbutter.net. You can get complete information on that at www. Liftingthefog.org. We'll see you next week.